Trust Over Transactions: Your Client Retention Playbook

Matt Danna: This was like a plan B or plan C path that they couldn't make it in college. And so they went to cosmetology school and like, there's just like, they're not looked upon as serious businesses. And that just really gets me going. Like you couldn't be more wrong. And so I think that there's a resilience and a strength of this industry that is really overlooked and underestimated.

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AD: This episode is brought to you by Boulevard. The first and only client experience platform purpose built for appointment-based, self-care businesses. Today's listeners can save 10 percent to claim your special offer. Head over to joinblvd.com/podcast That's joinblvd.com/podcast. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Matt, thank you so much for joining us. We're super excited to have this conversation, especially because this information I think is going to be mind blowing to a lot of people who hear it. But, before we jump into it, we would love to get to know you. I know our listeners are curious to get to know the man behind Boulevard. So please tell us a little bit about yourself. 

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Matt Danna: Thanks. Happy to be here. I’m Matt Dana, one of the co-founders and CEO of Boulevard. We started Boulevard almost nine years ago at this point. I was born in Massachusetts. I went to school in upstate New York, ended up in LA, that's where I met our co-founder, and now I live in Nashville.

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Very cool. How's Nashville treating you? 

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Matt Danna: It's hot.  

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah. It's really hot. Do you eat the hot chicken? 

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Matt Danna: It's a beautiful city. Yes, I do eat hot chicken. Yes. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Awesome. So what brought you to this industry? 

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Matt Danna: What brought me into the industry was more of a personal pinpoint. So the founding story we had at Boulevard was, I worked with Sean, my co-founder at our last company, and there was a week where his hair was a complete disaster. Myself, as a good colleague, was of course making fun of him and said he needs to go get a haircut. And what he told me really resonated. He said that he kept forgetting to call his salon to make an appointment during the day, and at night when he remembered, as you kind of remember to do those kinds of personal housekeeping things, it's, you know, salons are closed. And so he said he just kept forgetting. I was like, well, okay, well call right now. But, you know, we were just so curious why that was a pain point, right?

Like, why was that consumer experience like that? Like, why did these businesses that help you look and feel your best, why were they so hard to be a client at? It was really inconvenient. And so we just got, like, so curious about that problem to the extent where we're hanging out one weekend and we're walking into a few salons and spas and just asking how they handled appointments. And a long story short, like, we just learned that there was a big need for better technology in the space. And so we just got super excited and we decided that we could help build something better. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah, very cool. I know I'm grateful. Like shout out to Sean for having a bad hair day because we all needed the tool that you all built. So that's super exciting. Were you surprised to see how many people or companies, I should say, weren't online, like weren't booking online and were afraid to? 

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Matt Danna: We ended up doing this research. We posed as UCLA students that we were working on a project and, so we just got so curious by this, but we were surprised that, you know, all of these self-care businesses, you know, salons, spas, nails, like, you name it, they're all using technology.  I think that there's a perception like, “Oh, they must be on pen and paper, you know, they're analog, it's old school.” And like, no, they were all using tech. All of those solutions that they were using actually were capable of online booking, but the businesses wouldn't use it. And when asked about it. Like there would be like this visceral response of you know, are you using online booking? They're like, “No, like we hate it. It kills our business. It destroys us.” I'm like, wow. it was like I triggered them by asking that question. I was like, there's something very powerful there. Like, not really sure what's going on. And so we just got so curious about that and, you know, ended up learning that these solutions all worked where it's like, here's any slot of our calendar, grab any slot you want, or here's our entire availability. And, as you know, when you're scheduling for a client, there's so many things that are taken into consideration in order to place them at the right time. And so it was just really surprising that that fundamental need wasn't being addressed. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: There's definitely an art to booking, you know, it's wild. So It seems like you've gotten to know the industry and the people in it, like really intimately. So were there things that surprised you about the people and like the businesses?

I'd love to hear from an outsider looking in, like what do you think of us? 

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Matt Danna: I mean, I've grown to love this industry and the people. There's just an incredible amount of depth. I think one of the things that I've learned, as somebody that's kind of, you know, had one foot in the industry and one foot in tech is that there's just this incredible stigma about the industry that the folks that are, you know, the professionals, the workers, that this was like a plan B or plan C path that, you know, they couldn't make it in college and so they went to cosmetology school. And they’re just, they're not looked upon as serious businesses. And, uh, Like that just really gets me going. Like, you couldn't be more wrong. These businesses are just incredible. They're really well run and like they're dealing with kind of insane constraints and like really low profit margins, but like, they make it through. And so I think that there's a resilience and a strength of this industry that is really overlooked and underestimated. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Wow. That's very cool. Yeah, I hate seeing that. Like, I went to cosmetology school as a backup or I got that a lot where people would be like, “Oh, but you're so smart. Like, what are you doing in a salon?” And then I would explain to them that the salon I'm with makes millions of dollars, multiple millions of dollars, and we're opening a bunch of locations and guess what? Like, I don't have the crazy, like, college debt that all of you do, so I think there's so many people out there that are living that life and people have no idea, like, how much money is really being made, so…

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Matt Danna: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, there's businesses in our system that are making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. It's like the, it's, it's quite remarkable and it's just, no one knows from, you know, the outside. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Absolutely. And the best part about it is like, they're doing something that they love and it's creative and like, they're pretty much in charge of everything that happens around them. So it's, it's very exciting to see people take control and do something a little different.

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Matt Danna: I think there's so many folks that I've met in this industry that actually were like former accountants or a lawyer and like, they're now doing hair. Cause like, they love it. Like they had made it and like, this is their choice. I think that's the biggest thing is everyone chooses to be in this industry. Right? Like it's not an industry that you do cause it's a last resort. It's like, this is a choice and it's really special. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah, the passion, you can feel it. So Boulevard just recently launched a really cool report that had some very surprising information. Can you tell us about the Salon Industry Client Retention Report? 

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Matt Danna: One of the things that I think our industry forgets is that it's recurring revenue in nature, right? Like you have these clients and you want strong loyalty, but why is that so important? Uh, is that when you keep a client, that's one less client you need to acquire, right? Like one less client that you need to bring in the door. And so the more clients that you have, the bigger the base of clients, essentially. The more resilient a business will be, right? That recurring revenue is really powerful and sustaining. And it just adds a level of predictability to a business. We wanted to dive into that deeper. We wanted to see, okay, what is this? What is the shape of that look like, what is it? What are the characteristics of what good retention looks like for a salon? And it was, it was pretty interesting to see, uh, kind of what that ends up looking like. I think that the numbers were more surprising than we were expecting. I think was, has been very surprising to anyone that we've talked to about it as well. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Very cool. Can you share some of those details? Like, I know there is a bit about not selling to someone on like the first appointment, which obviously my like salon manager brain was like, “Oh my god, What? Like sales, sales, sales, right?” Like tell them what you use, put it up at the front like all the stuff that we were all trained on.” You know, I think at different times in my career, maybe I didn't always agree with, but I love that there's like now data saying, like, maybe you don't sell to them on the first appointment. Tell us more about that 

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Matt Danna: When you have a new client in your chair. The most important thing is to get them back for a second visit, and you should prioritize that above anything else, right? And so, uh, for me, like what, what we were seeing in the data was that the amount of businesses, um, and what good looks like, right? Like the best in class, there's a big difference in how many of those clients that are coming for a first visit actually ended up making it to a second visit.  And so, there's a big discrepancy there. And so what we see is best in class is 70 percent of the clients that you see for a first visit, end up coming for a second visit. The average that we see on our platform is 45%, right? So there's a huge difference in folks that end up coming back for best-in-class businesses that really do this well.

And so there's a big drop off after that first visit. And then if you play this forward, then the folks that come back for the next visit, for a third visit, right? The average salon is 70 percent. So it goes from 45 percent and then it goes then to 70 percent of that 45%. And so you keep playing this forward we ended up learning that like, there's a big difference in the businesses that are best in class and how many clients they end up retaining. Um, and those that are just kind of average, uh, client retention. And so basically the businesses that are really, really good at this have to work half as hard because they retain twice as many clients as the average business.

And so how does that show up? I mean, that shows up and like, you can be much more efficient in your marketing spend and how many clients you need kind of coming in to offset those that  you don't retain. There's some really interesting impacts on that sustainable revenue stream, that recurring revenue stream. And so my belief is, like, when you have a new client in the chair, get them back for a 2nd visit and get them actually back for a 3rd visit from there, and that is the most important step. You should market for the third visit, and do everything in your power to have just an incredible first couple of visits to get them to the third visit. And if you can get them to the third visit, they're basically your client for life, right? At that point, like they're yours, but we see like the biggest drop offs happen after the first visit for sure. And then the second visit as well. The third visit, you know, what that ends up looking like then operationally is, it is counterintuitive to what you were saying.

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah, like what we’ve learned as managers.

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Matt Danna: Yeah, if you have a brand new client in your chair, like, do you really have the license, the authority, the trust, the relationship to try to sell them some very expensive shampoo and conditioner? Like, it's probably, you know, the amount of salons that I think get this wrong, there's a lot where a client will come in and you're just trying to sell them everything. You're trying to sell them an enhancement, right? You're trying to sell them retail. You're trying to prebook them. You're trying to do all this stuff and it just ends up feeling overwhelming to the client. I think you should really focus on building that connection and then just do subtle things around like, “Hey, next time I'd love to like, try this, right?” Like, just start laying those breadcrumbs to build a deeper relationship, a long-term relationship. Don't try to do everything all at once. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's like the basics of how we get to know people, like when you first meet someone, you're not like, “Here's my childhood drama, you know.” I mean, maybe you are, which might be really fun, uh, but yeah, it doesn't work well for that. You take your time, like, peeling back the layers. So it seems so obvious, but like, it's so funny because like you said, we're trying to jam pack this appointment with the service, the sales, the products, the pre booking, and it does feel really overwhelming. I mean, I think it feels overwhelming to some of the service providers too, that are trying to nail all the areas. So that's awesome. Really nice to see some data backing that up, you know, very exciting.

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AD: This episode is brought to you by Boulevard, the modern, easy to use client experience platform that delivers everything you need to streamline your business, empower your staff and amaze your clients. Listeners can save 10% for tuning into this episode. To learn more, go to join blvd.com/podcast boulevard.

Make every moment matter.

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: How does client experience and having a really elevated one relate back to retention? 

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Matt Danna: Yeah, I mean, if you have an amazing client experience, like it's going to be really easy to get clients back, right? Like, if there's no work involved to, or any obstacles of a client coming back, that's an amazing experience, right?

It's super important to really kind of focus on that. It's like, you know, if clients are like, “Take my money!” You want to be able to accept that money in an easy way, right? So, that's everything from having some really simple booking to having, you know, having a playbook where you're not trying to overload them, on the first visit and just trying to like, just build that relationship, right. And your operations and kind of your goals and incentives and the commission plans of your, your staff should really reflect that. And it's like, you know, a lot of salons that the way that they prioritize their walk in list, and the way that they pay out commissions that really is around like, there's a lot in terms of like product sales, but like you don't want to incentivize the wrong behavior, right?

So you want to make sure that you're, you're selling the right product to the right client at the right time. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Right. Just being really authentic with everything. Yeah. Cause we've seen that where it's, everyone's getting the same look, everyone's getting the same products. And I think some clients are okay with it for a certain point, but then like retention does fall off after some time once they like, the smoke is cleared, you know. So yeah, I love what you said there, because I think every time you have a very effortless client experience, where you're just like, “oh my god, things are just happening for me.” It's, you want to repeat that. You want to come back and feel that again. 

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Matt Danna: And I mean, Shanalie, you were a manager. At a very premium salon here in L.A., uh, that's how we met. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah. 

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Matt Danna: Like, what are some of the tactics that you would train your staff on? 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: So, to be honest with you, looking back, like, I, I do wish I had done things a little differently because I did do a lot of what was, like, taught to me. 

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Matt Danna: You were pushing product on the first visit, weren't you?

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Of course, of course. I hate to admit it, but I was pushing product on that first visit. But I did come from a place of, like, authenticity, right? Where don't put something in front of this client just because it's the most expensive. Or you saw that they have a designer bag and now you're going to try to upsell them on the most expensive, whatever it is. Right? Like don't do any of that. Like, give people what they actually need. Be prescriptive. Um, I always taught people to be the professionals that they are, you're the hair expert, right? Give them the expertise. Like don't be a used car salesman. The one thing that I always had a difficulty with is, and maybe this could be a whole different episode, uh, Pre booking. Pre booking used to drive me insane, which, you know, obviously really like relates back into retention and all of that. But I, I always thought that there needs to be technology in place to pick those people up in the right way, because it does funnel back to client experience. Like, you know, I am from this industry. I grew up in this industry. I love everything about it, but like, I can't pre book my appointment at the time of my visit. I don't have that kind of schedule, right? 

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Matt Danna: You don't know what you're doing in 12 weeks from now? 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: No, I don't actually. I can't even tell you what I wore yesterday haha. So, like, 12 weeks from now, like, anything goes. 

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Matt Danna: It’s like disappointment. They're like, hey, let's book something out for six months. I'm like, what? I’ll end up changing it. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: RIght? It's funny enough because I did that recently and then they called me and they were like, hey, you're supposed to be here a half an hour ago. I was like, “See, this is why I don't book the appointment.” But similar thing.

I think it's about the client experience where like, “Hey, I live this busy life. Like you need to catch me when you catch me.” And if you're engaging with me, marketing to me in the right places, like I'm going to remember you. I'm going to remember I need that haircut. I need that facial and get back on the books. But yeah, products though, you got me on that one. I was definitely doing all the wrong things based on this data. So anyone I managed, I'm sorry (lol). But no like, there are some people that are just able to effortlessly sell that product, you know? Whether it be the first or the third appointment. I do think there are people who just naturally do that, but I do think this Information is incredibly important because like, if retention is always the main focus, everything else will come.

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Matt Danna: Absolutely. Yeah, you need to think about the client as the value of that client is more than just a single visit. You really need to think about if you retain them for a year, like how much revenue is that to you, right? Like how much, and so, uh, I think that's like having a longer  term view is really, really important. And I'm not saying somebody's out coming in and like, you know, that they really need a product or like their hair is damaged…  like sell the product. But, if they were like, “Oh, I don't have the right styling cream.” Or whatever. And then yes, help them. But like, don't just bring some random products out to the front desk where the front desk ends up having to sell them for you. Iit needs to be consultative, personalized, and yeah, so like you can't be lazy about it. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah, that's it. So like get off your script, like move away from your script. Like don't do the same like, “Hey, this is the moment that I put the products in front of you.” If this person really needs the product, like genuinely share why and how the education around it. Of course. 

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So now knowing what we know, what strategy would you recommend if you had to just pick one, right? What strategy would you recommend to salon owners that are thinking about all of this now? 

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Matt Danna: Yeah. I mean, I think it's, part of this is what we built Boulevard on, which was the, you need a really convenient booking experience for your clients. Slice this same data multiple different ways and one of the dimensions that we looked at was the clients that book online for the first time versus either phone or walk in. And the thing that we ended up seeing was that  the clients who book first online end up having twice as better retention as those that are calling or that walk in. And so like there's this type of client that is very high value to you, that you're much more likely to retain, and they want to book online. Like it's just a part of the behavior, uh, as if they oriented towards booking things online. They're going to stay with you longer. It's the most interesting thing. So there's a direct connection there. And the other part of that also is those that book online, they end up spending 30 percent more. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Wow. That’s a big number. 

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Matt Danna: That’s a big difference, right? So like, this is a very high value type of client that wants to book online. And so you need to make it as convenient, uh, and frictionless for them as possible.

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: That's very cool. It's almost like, we're witnessing the evolution of the client, right? Where I remember we were always calling and doing that, or maybe connecting directly with our stylist or whatever it was. So, uh, that's super exciting to hear because I know that's like a place where people get nervous, where like, are they going to have the same experience? Like where we can upsell and do the whole thing that we do over the phone. And it sounds like they're even having a way better experience. 

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Matt Danna: Yeah. Yeah. Imagine upselling if they just choose to get the add ons during the booking process and everything like you don't need to actually then upsell if they have already been upsold through the technology. Right. So things like that. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah. No, that's actually a great point I actually so, you know using Boulevard was my first experience like going online and you remember I was like… 

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Matt Danna: You were terrified. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah, I…

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Matt Danna: You were excited, but you were like oh my god.

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah! I must've, I always joke that I must've driven like the whole Boulevard team crazy.

And I'm shocked that you guys wanted to meet with me like the whole time, right? hahaha 

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Matt Danna: You scared me a little (lol). It was good though. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: I can be scary haha. It's nerve wracking though, right? These are million dollar businesses that are now trying something new, but I actually had really great feedback from a client that had been seeing the individual stylists for like even long before the salon existed. They followed them over, and they're like, “Oh, I, I used your tool and like, I didn't know you offered these other things.” Like, and we were doing like some of the Milbon treatments and stuff and, and it was like all these great extra add ons. And they're like, “I had no idea. I was just coming to get my little haircut and then I'm on the way, but yeah, I'm going to try out this new treatment.” And I was like, wow, okay. Like, I'm sold. Let's just keep doing this. 

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Matt Danna: You don't have a fast food menu where it lists everything that you offer at the front. So there's like a discovery aspect of seeing what other services are offered. And especially if you can merchandise that in the booking process when they're booking their primary service, like that's, you can make a lot of like upsell revenue from that. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Absolutely. And, and it doesn't feel pushy, which is the beautiful thing. 

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Matt Danna: Right. Absolutely. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Very cool. Okay. So we, in the next couple of questions we ask everyone, so, uh, we love to know we call this one, the good, the bad, the ugly. So this can be like an embarrassing story. It could be a big achievement. It could be like, you know, a big a-ha moment for you, you know, uh, what, what comes to mind? We want to hear it. 

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Matt Danna: I think it was like, maybe all of those things at once was when, you know, me working behind the front desk. So as you know, like when we were launching, every customer, my co-founder and I, we'd go and, and work on site, right? Like we'd go work a few days before, make sure that our software could power everything that they needed. Then we launch, and then we work for days, weeks, basically until, uh, you said, “Okay, get out of here! Like we're good. Like you can leave now.” 

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It was so awesome to have that experience being able to work our own software, play the role of front desk, and really see what it was like to like, you know, walk a mile in the shoes. What was crazy was like, it was one business that we worked at where like during the holidays, like the week of Thanksgiving, we were working, and like clients were like, not nice. I was just like, wow. And you can feel that, right? Like there was this energy that, uh, like when clients are stressed and it was mostly around the holidays, like you could feel that at the front desk and just, it was interesting. So it was, it was so much fun. It's such an amazing experience working, you know, across dozens of our earliest customers to really learn what was needed at the time for us to build, uh, but like, you know, the thing that I could just never figure out was like, the phones. Like,  I'm a, I'm an engineer, like, I'm pretty nerdy, but like, the phones were the hardest thing to, I hung up on so many people, and then I would feel terrible, uh, but like, there's a lot of buttons and like putting on my holds versus like trying to switch line like, like, Oh my God, I can't do this. Like, please just go use the online booking 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: That is hilarious. Well, don't worry, I'm sure those people call back, especially if it was the week of Thanksgiving. Also, very bold move, like going and working the front desk, like during the holiday time. Did you even know, like what it was like in salons during holiday?

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Matt Danna: No idea. No, I had no idea. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah. No, they'll, they'll make you cry. (lol)

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Matt Danna: Yes. Yes. It was intense. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah. No, but it's all in good fun. I feel like the second everyone gets their like service, they're like, okay, I'm back to myself. You know? Haha yeah. That's awesome. So our final question will be, how do you define success?

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Matt Danna: Success a lot of times is about impact. It's about, you know, the things that you're doing, do you accomplish them and do they have the impact that you're trying to make? And so, you know, we think about this quite a bit at Boulevard, which is the, you know, we're not just trying to be software, right? Like we're trying to actually be software that makes a tremendous impact on not only the day-to-day lives of our customers, but also on their PNL. Like we want to show real revenue. Uh, and we, we build our system, with like all those things in mind, it has like the best practices built in, and so like, it's, it's sometimes it's not about like the number of features you have, or like the 200 different report templates or whatever. Like, okay, fine, but what's the actual impact that you're making? And so I like to think about that in terms of success often —  what impact can we make and is the success that we create for our customers that then reflects on us as a brand. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Very cool. I know, I know just from experience that I feel like Boulevard does a great job at letting the customer be the star of the show where Boulevard is almost like an afterthought to the customer.

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Matt Danna: Be invisible, right? 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah.

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Matt Danna: I think that the most, you know, luxurious and premium experiences are just completely seamless. They're transparent. They just don't get in the way. And so, like, that's, that's what we try to do. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah. Great tech is tech that you don't think about. 

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Matt Danna: Exactly. Exactly.

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: That’s awesome. 

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Matt Danna: You don't want to have to learn how to use something, right? No. Like, you just want to be able to use it. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Easy as using your iPhone, right? 

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Matt Danna: Exactly. Yeah.

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Well, awesome, Matt. Thank you. This was great to have you on. Awesome information. 

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Matt Danna: Thank you, super fun. 

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Yeah. So, if folks want to learn more about Boulevard or you, like, where can we look you up?

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Matt Danna: You can learn more about me on our site. It's joinblvd.com. You can learn more about the company, as well as me, and, kind of what we're building.

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Shanalie Wijesinghe: Awesome. Well, thank you so much! 

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Matt Danna: Yeah. Thank you!

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