Embracing Mental Health & Wellness in the Workplace

SANDRA SHAKROKH: My father's from Mexico and I'm white passing Latina but like mental health is so stigmatized in Latin culture. Like I always hated that because I was like, all of these really abusive behaviors are just like, being swept under the rug. And so that was also like, okay, I want to learn. I want to learn about therapy. I want to learn about mental health, and I want to de-stigmatize it. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: I am Jozlyn Miller and this is Last Client of the Day presented by Boulevard. We are so excited to introduce our next guest, Sandra Shahrokh. Sandra is a licensed marriage and family therapist with a private practice in Los Angeles, California. She works with teens and adults. And adults dealing with childhood trauma, perfectionism, anxiety, and substance addiction. Sandra's multicultural background as a Latina and child of an immigrant informs her sensitivity to cultural influences on relationships and family dynamics. Sandra holds a master's degree in clinical psychology from Antioch University. Specializing in spiritual and depth psychology.

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AD: This episode is brought to you by Boulevard, the modern, easy-to-use client experience platform that delivers everything you need to streamline your business, empower your staff, and amaze your clients. Listeners can save 10 percent for tuning into this episode. To learn more, go to joinblvd.com/podcast Boulevard. Make every moment matter.

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JOZLYN MILLER: In today's episode, we'll be talking about mental health and what that looks like for owners, managers, for their team, and of course, their business. We have our lovely Sandra Shahrokh, our licensed marriage and family therapist. Thank you so much for joining us. We're so excited that you're here with us today.

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Thank you for having me here. I'm so excited. I'm so happy to be here. I think this topic is so needed in the industry and I hope that I can share a little bit about mental health and how to kind of incorporate it into your world and I'm excited. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yes, absolutely. I'm excited to have you as well. So yeah, before we dive into, you know, that really important topic, let's talk about you first. I would love for you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself and why you actually got into therapy. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Sure. Yeah, so I'm, um, Sandra Shahrokh. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I have a private practice in Los Angeles. And I work with people who are struggling with childhood trauma, who may not even realize that they're struggling. With childhood trauma, you know, they grew up maybe in an alcoholic home or a parent with like untreated mental health issues. And so they were often parentified. That's like my passion, getting to like witness people's stories, right? People's stories about where they've come from, how that's affected them, where they want to move towards in life, and getting to support them in their goals. I also love working with people who are exploring their relationship to drugs and alcohol, so maybe they don't want to get sober, but they're just curious about that.

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JOZLYN MILLER: What that looks like, yeah. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, I know you asked me like, why I became a therapist. And there's so many reasons. I feel like that's such a hard question. I think it's like I wanted to be the person that I wish I, like, I wish I had when I was younger. I think I wanted to be able to, again, hear people's stories if they were neglected and maybe never had anyone like to listen to them or help them or support them. So that's one of the main reasons. Also, I'm from a family, my father's from Mexico, and I'm white passing Latina, but mental health is so stigmatized in Latin culture. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: It is. We were actually just discussing this. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: And I know you were kind of saying that 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Exactly, in the black culture, it's definitely, it's different, and it's something that a lot of people don't talk about.

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, and I'm just like, I always hated that because I was like, why are we sweeping everything under the rug? We're not talking about anything. All of these, like, really abusive behaviors are just being swept under the rug. And so that was also like, okay, I want to learn. I want to learn about therapy. I want to learn about mental health and I want to de-stigmatize it. I want to break those barriers Impacting people from not getting help.

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JOZLYN MILLER: Absolutely.  I love that and that's a perfect reason to get into the field, you know. Helping one person at a time is, you know, definitely needed. So I completely get that. So, okay, I love it. 

So let's dive into the next, the first question, actually, or the next question. Why do you think more people are actually starting to research and get into therapy and starting to find therapists, you know, to help them with their day to day and just, you know, maneuvering around life right now?

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah. I mean, I think COVID was a big reason. Like, do you remember?  

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JOZLYN MILLER:  pretty much sit with yourself and be like, okay, this is me. Yeah. Or you were with other people, you know, and realizing that the time, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.  

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, just sitting, like it, was so isolating for people. I think people were really confronted with their own mental health issues. They probably, it was glaring, right? Like you couldn't deny being stuck in your house, safe in the house and seeing your relationships and seeing your own mental health, you couldn't hide from it during COVID. And so I think a lot of people acknowledge some anxiety, depression, maybe unhealthy relationships to drugs and alcohol.  And so people started seeking out help during that time. I think that started it. I mean, people were already seeking help before then. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: But there was a, you know… 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: a need. A real need just to like be with someone. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Exactly. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: It was so nice during COVID. It was terrifying. But like getting to be able to support people through that time was so sacred. I also think Instagram, TikTok, and social media is helping to destigmatize mental health. Because I think therapists I think there's been a misconception that therapy, like you go see someone and they're just like, yeah, this blank slate. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yes. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: I don't know. I don't know if you ever had that conception of therapy or what your conception of therapy was.

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JOZLYN MILLER: It was the actual opposite, to be honest, where they overspoke and I was like, you know what, I need someone different. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Okay. So, that can happen too. Yes. But I think people are feeling comfortable going on Instagram, going on TikTok, seeing therapists and being like, Oh, that person's speaking to me. I want to see that person, like I resonate with them.

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yeah. And I think that's what you’re also doing on your social media. You have different, which I love, you have different, um, stories where you're like, “Oh yeah, this is actually something that I'm dealing with right now. So I get that.” 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, thank you. So social media, I think, has been a huge proponent for people to reach out for services. And I also think people want change, you know, not just change as a society and in their communities, but change internally. People want, people want to change within themselves. And I think that's being talked about more, right? Like growth, like, how can we help you grow? And it's not just therapists doing that, right? And this is why I'm so excited. Again, another reason I'm so excited to be here is like Boulevard wanting to do that, like Boulevard wanting to help their employees grow and change. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Exactly. I think it's so important that we, you know, bring that type of awareness because it's something that everyone deals with no matter what field you're in, but specifically this field. So we definitely see it a lot where it's needed and it needs to be talked about more. So I agree with you. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, even if, you know, people still feel weird about going to therapy, it's like, what are companies doing? What can companies do to just start the conversation around mental health, right? Mental health, taking care of yourself doesn't have to be therapy where you go see someone one on one, right? It can be so many things. And I really want people to get that right. I don't want therapy, or even this conversation around therapy to turn people off. But really, it's just like we're talking about mental health here and how to take care of yourself. And whatever works for you, right?Therapy works for me. Like, I love therapy.

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JOZLYN MILLER: I love it.   

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Same. Yeah? It works for you, too? 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Absolutely. I don't know where I would be without it.

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah. Okay. I'm so happy to hear that. And thank you. Some people have done it and don't want to do it again. I'm happy that we're just starting this conversation on how to support your industry.

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JOZLYN MILLER: So when you think about businesses, let's say owners, um, what do you think about them prioritizing it? Let's talk a little bit more about that. Prioritizing it within their business and how that looks for not only, you know, the service providers and the team that they're working with, but also for the clients that come in. How do you think it is, um, like prioritizing, you know, that portion of their, their job? Because there's tons of things, you know, going on within these businesses, but I do think that mental health is very important. So what do you think about that? 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, it was interesting because I was like, I've been really thinking about this topic and I got my hair done on, on Tuesday. Thursday for my birthday. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: You look gorgeous. Happy birthday! 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH:Thank you! And I like curly hair and so the woman I go to specializes in curly hair. She sees a lot of women with curly hair and I was kind of asking her what she feels like she needs as a hairstylist, like what support she needs and she brought up something really beautiful: that Hair is so vulnerable. Like, makeup, hair, skin, like, aesthetic spas, like, people are really going to you in, like, their most vulnerable states. I think being able to know what to do as a stylist or an artist or a business owner, Uh huh. And being able to support your clients with this vulnerability, but also your employees, right? I think it comes with just acknowledging the work we do is very vulnerable, and we're going to hear a lot of stories from our clients. Just acknowledging that that is part of the job. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Right, and I usually hear people say, I'm going to my hairstylist, but I'm also going to my therapist. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, that's a big deal, right? And I was talking to my hairstylist and she was like, there's so much trauma related to hair and so I hear all of that and sometimes I don't know what to do or say. I'm just, I'm just sitting with this person's like pain and trauma about how a parent cut off their hair, or how, you know, they're mixed race and they always like hated their curls or their curls weren't accepted by someone and so and then I was like, I just kept thinking like, Oh my God, you're not trained, like, to hold that support that or even like, how do you reply to that?

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yeah, that is so true. So I mean, kind of bouncing on that. I would love to know, are there programs or different things that you would suggest that are out there to help train, you know, service providers or stylists or colorists that are needing to understand, like, how do you reply to something like that? Um, because maybe they're not necessarily going through therapy and know how, you know, to approach that. So are there any things that are out there that owners could recommend to their service providers. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, I think there are companies, I'm blanking on the name of two of them, but I know there's a black psychologist who started a company. She was like an owner of a hair salon and she's starting to train people. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Nice, okay.

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: But I also think kind of going back to your question that this is something for business owners to think about. Like, can you do a monthly training where it's either you or you're bringing someone in, whether that's a therapist or a communication specialist, to just be able to support your employees around, hey, we get clients who are dealing with a lot.

They're going to tell us our stories. Here are ways you can respond. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Exactly, exactly. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: And you don't have to do this. Do whatever you feel comfortable with. But how do we actively listen? How do we communicate in a way that's validating our clients, but also not trying to fix it for them or… 

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JOZLYN MILLER: because they're not, you know, licensed to, offer a recommendation of even like where to go next, you know, or how to approach.

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yes. Yeah. Like having a  resource pocket in your company, like some services you can recommend if they're open to it, or if you feel comfortable even sharing, Hey, I'm in therapy. Have you ever thought about it? Exactly. Sharing your experience. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yeah. And if they even say, you know, I'm not into it, maybe having suggestions on why it's important or why what they've, you know, gone through and how it's helped them. Yeah, I agree with that. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: And I think that's at the really deep level, but I also think it's just like the basic foundational level. How are you as a business owner modeling self-care to your employees? Because we can talk about self care all day. Even as a therapist, I can go tell my client, go do this, go do yoga, go dance. But like, what am I doing, right? Am I showing up to go see my clients when I'm stressed out, burned out? Or am I modeling to them? You deserve the best of me. I'm, I'm like taking today off, right? 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Right. Therapists need therapists. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Right! And I think it has to start from the top, right? What are business owners doing to model?

It's okay to take time for yourself, right? Because we can say it's okay to take time, but are business owners taking time for themselves? Are they like going out and taking care of themselves? Are they, are you noticing when you're burned out? Do you know what burnout is? And I think at the foundational level, it's like, what is burnout? How do you know when you're burned out? How are you modeling what, how to take care of yourself when you're burned out? 

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JOZLYN MILLER: And then from there, passing that on to their team. Yeah. I agree. I mean, it's very important to know self awareness because especially if you're, you know, leading a team, you have to have that self awareness to understand if you're burnt out because they may notice it, you do not notice it. So you need that, you know, so I do believe it's very important not just to start with, you know, the service providers and the team, but also to make sure it's trickling down and starting off with them so that they can be giving, you know, the best support that they can. I believe that. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Having these conversations, even if no one is saying anything because oftentimes people, and especially the clients I work with who grew up with a lot of trauma, they're so good at holding everything inside. “I'm good. I got this. I can see fine.” I mean, how many clients were you seeing a day? 

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JOZLYN MILLER: I actually wasn't a service provider (lol). But I mean for massage therapists, you'll have anywhere from, I don't know, it could be anywhere from five to 10.  

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, so they're like, no, I got this. I could see five to 10 clients a day. I'm fine. But then they're going home and they're just like, feeling burned out. But then they go to work with a smile on their face. No one knows that they're struggling. So I think, again, at a foundational level, just do something monthly anyway. Even if no one's asking for it or saying anything. It's like, hey, we're going to have this conversation because it's important and necessary. And even if you don't think you're burned out and you think you can handle this, which you probably can. It still might be harming you. It still might be increasing anxiety. It still might be. making you depressed. So let's have these conversations just in case. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Right. Just so you can notice it if it does get to that point. I love that.

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AD: This episode is brought to you by Boulevard. The first and only client experience platform purpose built for appointment based self care businesses. Today's listeners can save 10%. To claim your special offer, head over to joinblvd.com/podcast. That's joinblvd.com/podcast

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JOZLYN MILLER: So let's talk about who benefits from therapy.

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: I know we've kind of been talking about service providers, and service providers, I think, can benefit from therapy, but also managers, as well as business owners of these companies, and I think there's a lot that goes into it. So there's a service providers on the floor, right? With the clients kind of direct client care, holding all of that. And then the managers, I think there's those whose clients are probably like the employees in a sense, right? Like managing all of the employees. So that brings additional stress, right? How do I show up for my employees when I'm carrying all this stress? Right? Who does the manager have to go to? With all of that. And so therapy really is, is a space where you can bring your stress, your worries, your anxieties, and you don't have to do it alone. Getting support, right? And then owners of the company who, who might be worried about, you know, the business structure. 

But what we know about stress is that when we hold on to stress, we get more sick. It affects our body. It affects outside of work, right? We're showing up a certain way at work, right? We have to be a certain way to some degree. I also really think there's this idea, and we were kind of talking about it downstairs earlier, of like, getting to be your authentic self at work. And I think therapy can really help you acknowledge what's authentic and what's not, right? Who am I authentically? Who am I because I feel like I have to be? And like really looking at that, so you can show up to work authentically. You know, maybe it's not perfect. Maybe you are having a bad day. And is that okay? Yes!

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yes..No one is going to be at 100 percent every day.  

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yes. No one should be. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Exactly. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: So therapy can really help you understand what negative beliefs you are carrying. And how to kind of shift that perspective, right? How can I show up to work as a manager and give 80 percent and still feel good enough, right?

How do I take a day off to be with my family, to be with my friends? Because that's important, too. If we're carrying everything at work and we're carrying that inside of our body, not getting support, not talking about it, we're going to get sick. Your relationships outside of work are going to shift, you might be more reactive, you might be more angry, anxious, and people are going to be like, what's going on with you?

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JOZLYN MILLER: Right. I think the support system is really important also. Like, I know owners are looked at as, you know, that top person that it should trickle down to, but I think it should also be the opposite way. What do you think about that? Like, the service providers being able to see, you know, and tell if the owner needs that extra support because they might not be at that 100 percent or 80%. Let's say they're at 50 percent that day. Being able to tell like, okay, maybe my owner needs a little bit more support. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: I love that. Yeah. Like exactly what you're saying. It's a community at work. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Exactly. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Right, and I think there's been these hierarchies of like, okay, the owner's going through something, but we can't talk about it. Um, so how can we create cultures and communities around talking about things? And kind of going back to like, where We started about, like, Black cultures, Latin cultures, not talking about things. Like, let's not create our family dynamics at work. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Um. Let's break that, you know, stigma that's out there.

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Let's create something different. Exactly. So, I love that you brought that in there because I think it would be really powerful for a service provider to go up to an owner and just be like, hey, checking in. Right. Is there anything I can support you with? Exactly. And the owner being able to be vulnerable, right? That modeling.

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JOZLYN MILLER: That is such a big part of being an owner and manager. I do believe, or a leader just in general, you know? Yeah. You have to be able to be open and vulnerable. I do think it's respected, you know, a lot more. Yeah, the opposite of that, you know, 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, and I think boundaries are key to that. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yeah, You don't want to give too much haha. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH:  Yeah, like the whole trauma narrative and story .And then like, the person's like, I don't know, I wasn't asking for your family history. But I just wanted to see if I could support you. So I think about navigating that too. And also, like, for the owners and managers, if you're feeling like a shift needs to be made in your company and you don't know where to start, hire someone. Like, you don't need to know where to start. Like, you don't need to figure it all out. You don't need to have all the answers. And I think that's huge. A lot of managers and owners feel like they have to have all the answers a lot of the time. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Which no one does. So use the support, you know, that's out there.

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Right, use the support of your community and team. Be vulnerable. And if that's like, I don't know where to start, but I know something needs to change. Again, those amazing services, like I know L'Oreal is doing something. Um, what was the barbershop? 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yes, the confess project.. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yes, like, there's, there's all these companies that are kind of starting to do that.

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yeah, we don't have to create it from the beginning, right? There's so much support that's out there already. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah. Absolutely. I do think, though, that, like, if things are not talked about, If people are just going to work, carrying it all, it's going to affect the business and the company.

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit more. So tell me what that could look like if you don't, you know, have these certain support systems in place and these programs that you're offering, whether it be for service providers, staff members, or for clients, what could that look like for a business that usually has people come with their problems and talks about their different issues that they're going through?

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Well, I also think it's about employee retention too, like employees are going to search for what they need, right? So there are companies offering training and mentorship around mental health and how to communicate around some of these topics that we talked about, right? When clients are coming in with so much stress and what to do with that.

There are companies who are offering that. So it's also, you know, I think employees could kind of start getting together if they're stressed and unhappy and feel like no one's listening to them or seeing them, right? I think people, and maybe this is just me, but I think people just want to be seen and heard. It's not even like you don't have to fix it right now, you just have to listen.

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yeah you don’t need a solution, but you just need to talk it out. It's literally like talking it out with your girls. Like I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing or am I crazy?  

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, exactly. Like yeah, just validate that like I'm not crazy Like I have a right to be stressed out about what's happening in our company 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Mm hmm 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: And I think people are pretty generous, like Hey, I get it, like, you're figuring out how to support the company, you're figuring out what services we need. But I think people, like, just want to be seen and heard, so if you're not, as an owner and a manager, if you're not seeing and hearing your employees, it's going to result in like, are you retaining them? Are people leaving because of some of these things? Um, and it's not necessarily a reflection of you, right? It's just what can be done, right? So that can be a consequence of kind of not looking at the mental health aspect of the work that you all do. As well as like, individually, I talked about this, but like, What's going on with you, is going to impact the people around you. Whether you're aware of it or not. So, that's it, too. Like, relationships are hard already. And so, showing up less stressed is going to make them better. I also think, and I don't know if this has happened, but people who are on social media unhappy, often tend to find other people who are unhappy and then can kind of form like coalitions.

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JOZLYN MILLER: Right, it just gets bigger and bigger.  

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, and bigger and then this negative kind of environment that they don't really want to be in. No one wants to be in, right? 

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JOZLYN MILLER: It sounds like social media and the comments. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like reading all the negative comments on social media. Yeah, and you can kind of get sucked into that. So it's also like, how do we create healthy work environments? Which means, seeing and hearing your employees. What do they have to say? What do they want? Also again going back to my original idea just doing something whether or not people are saying right 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Saying something even if they don't think they need it, because it could open, you know that door to let them know, maybe I do need to check in a little bit more with myself and kind of understand myself more. So yeah, I get that. I completely get that. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, and even like owners and managers are mentors and like, I always remember the people who have mentored me in my life. Like that has always been so valuable and so important when they've taken the time to just listen to me. And so again, modeling, taking care of your mental health. It's okay. You don't have to do this alone, nor should you. Nor should you carry that stress. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: I love that. I love it. Thank you. Before we end, I would love to ask this just to make sure we're asking all of our guests this. How do you define success? But how do you define it in a, you know, personal and emotional state? 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: I used to think it was having all the things, right? I used to think it was like having the partner, having the child, having the car, having the home. And it is, to some part of it, but more than all of that, it's loving myself. Learning how to love myself because when I'm okay with myself, I'm such a better human. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yes. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: And it took me a really, really long time to get that, like, I can still have all of the things and be so unhappy, right? And trying to fix other people. If this person just acted this way, I'd be okay. If I just had this, right, if I just had this new shiny thing, I'd be okay. I'd feel better. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Right, that's why people go shopping when they're feeling sad. And it does, it's like the only for that moment, you know, it'll cast it for the only that moment. But after that, you're still having to deal with your, you know, your inside and your self.

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: No, don't get me wrong. The shiny things are nice. That's important. It's part of it, right?

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JOZLYN MILLER: Yeah

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: I know it's like, it is cliche, but like, I feel that on such a deep level. It doesn't matter what I have, if I'm stressed out, not happy with myself, I'm just like, not a nice human. And so really success to me is like waking up every morning, not in fear, but in peace. Yeah, that's success to me. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: That's beautiful.Thank you so much for joining us today, Sandra. It was amazing. Understanding, you know, for just owners in general and what they can do to help support their business and their team members. So thank you. Where can our listeners find you? 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Yeah, I have an Instagram. That's where I recommend. And then I'm like, I link my website and everything, but it's therapy with Sandra or @therapywithsandra. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Perfect. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: And thank you so much for asking me to be here.  

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JOZLYN MILLER: Absolutely. We are so happy that you were able to join us. 

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SANDRA SHAKROKH: Thank you. 

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JOZLYN MILLER: Amazing. Thank you so much.

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